An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act

Wednesday April 10, 2002

 

    Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg--Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I listened with care to the members who spoke before me. It seems to me that the heart of the matter is the way people regard the change in the status of animals as a result of Bill C-15B. For the first time the treatment of animals and the whole question of cruelty to animals is being taken out of the property section of the criminal code and put into an entirely new section of the criminal code. This is the source of concern on the part of at least three of the opposition parties.

    The New Democratic Party sees this change in the status of animals as one of the things that is good about the bill. Getting beyond regarding animals as simply property is a conceptual and philosophical advance. We are not opposed to that. In fact that is one of the things we celebrated about Bill C-15B along with a lot of other people.

    We join with those who feel that amendments to the criminal code with respect to increasing penalties for cruelty animals is long overdue. I hope the Bloc would share our view on that even though it appears it has decided to oppose the bill.

    I listened with care to the critic from the Alliance. He expressed a lot of concerns that I know are out there in the community of fishermen, farmers, hunters, trappers, people who use animals for medical research purposes, people who grow animals for food, et cetera. They all have a concern that the legislation would somehow be used to harass them and to make their life miserable.

    People who have what one might arguably call a radical animal rights agenda could use the legislation in ways that it was not intended, not intended by the government, and not intended by the NDP in supporting the legislation. If the legislation were to become a tool by which people engaged in those kind of activities were harassed then I for one would be quick to come back to the government and say that we were wrong on this. I would argue that the protections built into Bill C-15B to prevent that kind of harassment were not working and that we must do something to protect the legitimate interests and activities of people who grow animals for food or people who were engaged in fishing, hunting, research, et cetera. I would certainly share those concerns.

    I must say I do not know why the government was not more open in the drafting of the legislation to giving the kind of discretion to the provincial attorneys general that some people argue should be in there.

    On the other hand the Alliance critic, the member for Provencher, seems to think that there would never be any political agenda if only it were left in the hands of the attorney general. I would regard this argument as somewhat suspect. I can imagine the member for Provencher in other contexts accusing a particular provincial attorney general of having a political agenda with respect to enforcement of certain laws having to do with social policy or whatever.

    It would not be a guarantee to me, if the power that is sometimes vested in attorneys general was left with attorneys general with respect to the enforcement of these new offences, that somehow farmers and fishermen and others would be protected. It is conceivable that we could have an attorney general with a radical animal rights agenda in which case there would be no protection. In fact, there might even be less protection. There might even be instructions to crown prosecutors or others to go after everybody they possibly could. The argument from the Alliance critic is somewhat one-sided in that respect.

    In some ways the response of the Alliance to Bill C-15B and the radical animal rights activists are sort of mere images of each other. They both attribute extremist motivations and intentions to each other. We saw that clearly this afternoon and that is unfortunate. I do not think that has contributed to the kind of debate that we could have had about Bill C-15B.

    I regret that the hoist motion has been moved by the Alliance critic because that means that this debate will drag on further than it ought to. The time has come for this legislation to be passed, tested and practised, and if found wanting, if found to be a source of illegitimate harassment of people who are involved in various legitimate activities then let us have the legislation back.

    Bill C-15B does not have to be the last word on it. I have seen other legislation passed through the House and come back in a few years time to be corrected. I have also seen legislation that does not come back. We all have a political responsibility to ensure that if in some way or another the bill does not live up to expectations, or for that matter if it does live up to the negative expectations of certain people, we will need to come back and correct it.

    We feel that the bill is worthy of passage as it stands now. We would like to see the bill passed as soon as possible; we see this as progress. We are willing in future to review whether or not some of the fears that have been expressed about the bill have come to pass and if they have we would be willing to review it.

    Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my colleague for whom I have immense respect. He has been here a long time and has seen a lot of legislation come and go.

    I was somewhat taken aback at his suggestion that if in fact the bill was found wanting and it came to pass that the legislation was used for extreme purposes to harass legitimate activities involving animals, whether it be farmers or furriers, those involved in animal husbandry of any sort, that we could bring it back.

    Yes, he is correct in suggesting that things can move very quickly through the House if that is the government's intention yet he would know that this particular issue has not been before us for many years. In fact this is one element of the criminal code that has not been touched for decades.

    My great concern and the concern that I have had expressed to me numerous times is that if those individuals who fall under the prosecution sections for legitimate activities are told to wait for the bill to come back again, that simply will not cut it. They will be out of business; they will be bankrupt. They will lose their farms or their businesses. I am sure my friend would agree that is cold comfort.

    To that end it seems to me that as parliamentarians we have a far greater responsibility to get it right this time. All of the intent of the bill could be achieved by leaving the sections involving the designation of animals as property as they are and upping the ante with respect to the punishment sections and the reach that investigators have. Would my friend not agree that would be a far more practical approach now in the first instance?

    Mr. Bill Blaikie: No, Mr. Speaker, because I was convinced, as were others, that doing what the hon. member suggests would simply perpetuate a problem that people have experienced with this legislation in the past. That is it would continue to be difficult to get convictions with respect to cruelty to cats, dogs and other animals which in the past it has been difficult to get convictions on, not on the animals but on those who are being cruel to them. I was persuaded, as were my colleagues, that there was a need to make those kinds of changes.

    The member said that this is new and we have not spent much time on it. However we have spent a lot of time on it, I think over 100 years, so that argument can be turned around. It is not as if there has not been lots of time to argue for, to expect or to consider what changes should be made to the criminal code with respect to cruelty to animals.

    We have come this far. I think it is incumbent upon on us to show some leadership on this issue. It is time to give this new status to animals, but not in a way that would serve the radical agenda of people who want to eliminate the use of animals for food, clothing or research. That is certainly not my position. I believe that these are legitimate activities.

    As I said before, we ought to be open to the prospect that sometimes legislation can be used in ways that were not intended. If that turns out to be the case, as I said before, we would want to have this legislation reviewed.